Health care the way it should be

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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Mon 14, 2009 11:30 am

TANG is so Summer of 1968. I couldn't give a rat's *ss what anybody did 40 years ago. TANG was never more than a sideshow promoted by Dan Rather and other DEM froth-at-the-mouth types in an attempt to derail GWB's electoral prospects. We all know how that worked out.
Surely you jest. TANG only became relevant once the Swifties (organized, funded and consulted-to by lifelong GOP operatives) declared open season on John Kerry's Vietnam war record (and the truth). What was good for the goose was good for the gander, with the main difference being, of course, that John Kerry was actually "in theater," instead of womanizing and going AWPBHWPC (absent with permission because he was politically connected) in order to work on GOP Senate campaigns, stateside.

And I beg to differ on whether the country has any taste for "socialized medicine", to indulge you and your party's penchant for buzzwords and bumper stickers. I would venture to guess that an opinion poll on whether Medicare should be abolished would get single digit "Yes" responses, and that any such bill introduced in the Congress would lose 100-0 and 435-0, respectively. I also recall, in the aftermath of Ted Kennedy's death, various tributes to Orrin Hatch and Chuck Grassley for their bipartisanship in helping Kennedy pass legislation to extend health care coverage to disadvantaged children. And that's not to mention the massive expansion of Medicare pushed through a GOP-controlled Congress by a certain GWB.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Mon 14, 2009 11:45 am

No, You started it!

And I think there is still a cool million available for proving a lie by the Swifties. What, you don't need it?


Tim Russert at the White House February 2004
SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 8, 2004

Mr. President, this campaign is fully engaged. The chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Terence McAuliffe, said this last week: "I look forward to that debate when John Kerry, a war hero with a chest full of medals, is standing next to George Bush, a man who was AWOL in the Alabama National Guard. He didn't show up when he should have showed up'¦"

Swift Boat Veterans History:

First television advertisement
SBVT first went public with a May 4, 2004, press conference declaring opposition to Kerry.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Mon 14, 2009 3:36 pm

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Another case of red versus right...

Read all about it
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Mon 14, 2009 7:19 pm

Perhaps you began following politics some time in the past month or so, but a campaign as sophisticated as the Swift Boat veterans doesn't pop up overnight, like some mushroom (although it definitely thrived on bullsh*t). It certainly took a while to round up +/- 150 signatories to its initial "open letter" to John Kerry (also dated and released on May 4, 2004), and the target "market," as far as whom to solicit as potential signatories, are those who served with or near John Kerry's unit in Vietnam. The chances that such a campaign could be organized and launched in less than two months, without John Kerry and other Dem politicos being tipped off? 0.00%.

Terry McAuliffe's statement in February was a preemptive strike. Duh.

Even then, neither the Kerry campaign nor the DNC nor any 537 group went on the air with any TANG-related ads until long after the Swifties had been on the air, and heavily.

Try again.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Mon 14, 2009 7:22 pm

Marshead wrote: Terry McAuliffe's statement in February was a preemptive strike. Duh.
And how did that work out? Kerry of course could have stopped the whole think cold by releasing his military records but he didn't. He waited until after the he had lost election.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Mon 14, 2009 7:24 pm

And how did that work out? Kerry of course could have stopped the whole think cold by releasing his military records but he didn't. He waited until after the he had lost election.
No argument there, but this is about GC's silly and irrelevant comparison between what a political party's chairman said to a Sunday morning talk show host in some studio and what an elected buffoon, I mean Congressman, blurted to the President's face during a prime-time address to a joint session of Congress.

Wilson Shouts 'You Lie' After Wife Fakes Orgasm
Breach of Congressional Decorum, Experts Say

(AP) Rep. Joe Wilson (R-SC) courted controversy again today as he reportedly shouted "You lie" during a sexual encounter in which his wife pretended to have an orgasm.

While details of Rep. Wilson's latest outburst are sketchy at best, congressional experts say that it is totally against the decorum of the House of Representatives to speak out during a spouse's faked orgasm.

But the South Carolina congressman got a vote of support from fellow Republican lawmakers, Senators John Ensign (R-NV) and David Vitter (R-LA), who issued a joint statement which read: "It's so rare for a Republican politician to have sex with his own wife, we should applaud it when it happens."

In a related story, President Obama said that Rep. Wilson's outburst during his speech Wednesday night was "productive," adding, "Joe Wilson highlighted the need for expanding access to mental health care."
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Mon 14, 2009 7:40 pm

Marshead wrote:
And how did that work out? Kerry of course could have stopped the whole think cold by releasing his military records but he didn't. He waited until after the he had lost election.
No argument there, but this is about GC's silly and irrelevant comparison between what a political party's chairman said to a Sunday morning talk show host in some studio and what an elected buffoon, I mean Congressman, blurted to the President's face during a prime-time address to a joint session of Congress.
Actually the situations are quite similar, it is about the democrats being unable to frame the debate. The 2004 election suddenly became about Kerry lying about his military service and being out of touch with the average american. the health care debate suddenly becomes about somebody being rude to the president. Both are pretty silly acts that the the democrats could have avoided but instead they complain about them and no longer are able to frame the debate in their favor.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Mon 14, 2009 8:54 pm

it is about the democrats being unable to frame the debate
To a certain extent yes. Partly, it's simply proof of the old Sam Rayburn adage:

"Any jackass can kick down a barn, but it takes a good carpenter to build one."

It's a heck of a lot easier to block legislation as complicated as this than to draft it and get it passed, with so many powerful special interests who are heavily invested in the status quo.

But don't be so sure that the Democrats can't get their message out.

CNN/Opinion Research Poll:

"Do you favor or oppose Barack Obama's efforts to reform health care?"

August 28-31

Favor: 48
Oppose: 51
No opinion: 2

Net: - 3

September 11-13

Favor: 51
Oppose: 46
No opinion: 3

Net: + 5
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Sep Mon 14, 2009 9:16 pm

Did you forget this part??

The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 5 percentage points.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Mon 14, 2009 9:24 pm

Did you forget this part??

The survey's sampling error is plus or minus 5 percentage points.
So it was back in August 28-31. The poll still shows a net swing of 8 points.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Phil » Sep Mon 14, 2009 9:29 pm

:lol:
Stephanopoulos: Obama Healthcare Speech No Game-Changer
By Noel Sheppard
September 14, 2009 - 11:40 ET

Something absolutely shocking happened on Monday's "Good Morning America": ABC's George Stephanopoulos told the nation that the President's healthcare address to the country Wednesday did nothing to change Americans' views about ObamaCare.

Referring to a new ABC News/Washington Post poll released moments earlier, Stephanopoulos shared numbers with host Diane Sawyer indicating the President's speech wasn't the game-changer Democrats and the Obama-loving media had hoped.

And, you can see by the expression on Stephanopoulos's face that no one was more disappointed than him

Split on Obama's handling of health care: 48-48 (46-50 August 17)
Support Obama's health care reforms: 46-48 (45-50 August 17)
President Obama's job approval is at 54 (57 August 17)
Deficit: 65% think health care reform will make it worse
Medicare: 56% of seniors think it will weaken Medicare
On the crucial "what's in it for me?" question, twice as many Americans (32-16) think it will make their own care worse, twice as many (40-20) think it will increase their costs, and more than three times as many (37-11) think it will hurt their coverage.


Exit question: will other media outlets share the bad news from this poll?
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-shep ... me-changer
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Ian Dashner » Sep Tue 15, 2009 10:30 am

Frankly I think the public option is dead and Baucus' lengthy negotiation will be its prolonged burial. Frankly liberals can prolly thank Barney Frank for announcing the public option as the only way to eventually get universal healthcare foisted on the US (guess some folks can't help but bat a hornet nest when they see one). They can blame the republicans if they like but they got all the keys to the kingdom. When it comes down to it you have to conclude that Democrats don't consider public healthcare a core principal, or they don't have the fortitude to stick to their core principals when the chips are down. Prolly a combination of the two as far as the party is concerned. Really Republican opposition wouldn't matter if it weren't so obvious that the D party itself fractured on the issue of the public option. Yet here they are at Baucus negotiation table disassembling the most "progressive" portions of the reform.
The Baucus plan would create nonprofit cooperatives to compete with insurance companies instead of a government-run insurance plan -- the "public option" -- sought by liberal Democrats and backed by Obama.

The public option has come under fire from critics concerned it would hurt insurance companies and give government too broad a role, but many liberal House Democrats say it will foster increased competition and they will not support a plan without it.

While Obama backs a government-run option, he has signaled it is not essential to help meet his goal of expanding coverage to the uninsured.

The Baucus plan under discussion by negotiators would tax insurance companies on their most expensive healthcare policies and levy a fee on companies that would raise about $6 billion a year to help pay for the plan.

It also would offer tax credits on a sliding scale for individuals and families starting in 2013 to offset the cost of private plan premiums, and would provide tax credits to small business.

In addition, it proposes to limit out-of-pocket expenses for patients, bar insurers from placing caps on benefits and expand the government-run Medicaid program for the poor.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Tue 15, 2009 11:47 am

As for Rangel, I fail to see any connection between him and the health care debate/Joe Wilson controversy, but I hope the Ethics Committee completes its investigation soon, that it issues a report that is not split along party lines, and that if he is found to have done what he is alleged to have done, that they throw the book at him instead of giving him a slap on the wrist.
I hope, when the time comes, that he does not run into politically motivated prosecutors such as those faced by an elderly Alaskan Senator. Speaking of Alaska, who do those NY Post reporters think they are dealing with - going to his homes of all places, Sarah Palin?
Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-NY) was asked about his failure to disclose about $700,000 in assets this weekend in Harlem by my pal Azi Paybarah of PolitickerNY - and responded by saying he was a victim of a New York Post smear campaign. . . . “I think it's totally unfair for the New York Post to send investigative reporters to my family's homes and to do that type of thing,' he said during a rally in Harlem over the weekend. “I guess it's all selling papers.'
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Tue 15, 2009 3:40 pm

Marshead,

It isn't so much that people don't want a public plan, it is that they do not want the tax hike that is going to be needed to pay for it. Trust me on this as an HR manager, I can tell you that taxing the health benefits of people making over 250K is not going to generate the income to pay for it.

The OMB has come out and stated that the plans currently being floated around do not have the true cost associated it to them. Also people keep talking about medicare and medicaid, both are government plans and are plagued by fraud and underfunding.

Also different states mandate different coverage, does the federal government have the right to step in and tell the states what they can and can not do on this issue, it appears to be a states rights issue here, as the equal protection clause in the 14th ammendment comes into play.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Tue 15, 2009 5:11 pm

Also different states mandate different coverage, does the federal government have the right to step in and tell the states what they can and can not do on this issue, it appears to be a states rights issue here, as the equal protection clause in the 14th ammendment comes into play.
Between the Commerce Clause and the Supremacy Clause, I see no basis for denying that the federal goverment has the power, if it chooses, to mandate coverage. We can argue all day about whether it's a good idea, but there's no question that it would be constitutional.

But speaking of state's rights, tort law has been a matter reserved almost exclusively to the state legislatures and state courts from the very inception of the Republic. How do the Republicans propose to enact a federal cap on malpractice awards without betraying one of their core principles? (Hey, Teach. Yeah you, Ian. It's "principles", not "principals", at least in the context that you used the word.) Just as the then GOP-controlled Congress tried to legislatively overturn the decision of the Florida courts in the Schiavo case, and just as John Ashcroft fought like hell to overturn the twice-passed (by the voters, by referendum) right-to-die statute in Oregon, "state's rights" is a "core principle" that the GOP conveniently jettisons whenever doing so might possibly further a specific policy aim.
Last edited by Marshead on Sep Tue 15, 2009 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Tue 15, 2009 6:19 pm

How do the Republicans propose to enact a federal cap
:lol:

Mushy,

It's not about republicans or dems... Are you on board with that???

How about RIGHT vs. WRONG...

Geez, how sprung does one partisan become??
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Tue 15, 2009 9:45 pm

Mushy,

It's not about republicans or dems... Are you on board with that???
Yes. But it's the GOP that is pushing for a federal cap on malpractice awards, and for enacting various other federal rules to govern malpractice cases -- a position which seeks to impose a federal standard on an area that has always been the province of the states, and which is entirely inconsistent with the principle of "states rights."

Mark and G.C. -- I'll save you some time, and stipulate that there are a handful of Democratic Congressmen and/or Senators who also support federal regulation of malpractice cases.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Wed 16, 2009 7:28 am

Yes. But it's the GOP that is pushing for a federal cap on malpractice awards
But isn't it the communist liberal party who pushes for things such as eco-lenninism, acornism, fairness doctrine, etc. and other subterfuge not understood by the young and innocent??

Won't the so called 'gop cap' throw a wrench into the bambulance chasing biz.??.
Will it be OK with you if the general population continues to pay that subsidy into your account?? Is it OK for the presently covered to keep subsidising E/R room deadbeats who have no insurance, drivers license, or other responsibility??
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Wed 16, 2009 7:55 am

Marshead wrote:
Mushy,

It's not about republicans or dems... Are you on board with that???
Yes. But it's the GOP that is pushing for a federal cap on malpractice awards, and for enacting various other federal rules to govern malpractice cases -- a position which seeks to impose a federal standard on an area that has always been the province of the states, and which is entirely inconsistent with the principle of "states rights."

Mark and G.C. -- I'll save you some time, and stipulate that there are a handful of Democratic Congressmen and/or Senators who also support federal regulation of malpractice cases.
Whats wrong with a cap on malpractice awards or for that matter any court awards. If my 79 year old uncle goes in for an operation and dies due to doctor error, should I really be able to sue for 5 million dollars, I don't think so. Look at the woman who spilled hot coffee on her vaginal area, McDonalds had too pay out millions of dollars which was completely bogus.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Joe P in 08 » Sep Wed 16, 2009 10:32 am

No doubt - health insurance, and all other types of insurance from flood, general liability, car, etc., needs to be monitored and likely, reformed. Insurance companies have more money, and influence, than The Creator - and this is the dirtiest, poorly kept secret in the country.

Government instituted unnatural selection through determination of who gets to breed and who gets to be properly nourished and educated is just as bad as the existing inequities and schemes. But what makes government controlled unnatural selection MORE dangerous is that IT would be codified and then controlled by certain special interests that could seize control of government institutions. Then, ALL of the resources of a nation, the wealth of ALL - individually and collectively - is at the disposal of that central authority.
Remove economic freedom and Liberty is D-E-A-D.

THAT I believe is the scariest thing about this 'legislation.' It sets up ABSOLUTE control over the population and resources by the government.
Between the Commerce Clause and the Supremacy Clause, I see no basis for denying that the federal goverment has the power, if it chooses, to mandate coverage. We can argue all day about whether it's a good idea, but there's no question that it would be constitutional.
Like our esteemed town counsel...another clairvoyant lawyer! :roll:

I would hope that a group of states would sue to block the enactment of the law. States Rights, y'know.
What next? National car insurance?
It's tough enough - next to impossible NOW to challenge such powerful Government-Business Complexes.
Developers, consorting with government offcials and bureacrats, run roughshod over the people and the envrionment NOW with the help of laws like 40B.

People need help - but....
it is the government Insiders and bureaucrats that have CREATED THE CRISIS.

I want people to be helped but I don't want the government creating the conditions that lead to the need to help them out.
And these conditions are created by not enforcing existing laws and by not protecting the workers NOW.

'Free Market' with an absence of regulations can be and often is just as dangerous as government takeovers. This is because not all CEO's and management AND THEIR LAWYERS can be counted on to not screw the workers at every chance.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Wed 16, 2009 12:47 pm

Like our esteemed town counsel...another clairvoyant lawyer!
Fools go to lawyers and say: "Um, I did this thing, and now I think I'm in big trouble."
Smart people go to lawyers and say: "Um, I'm thinking of doing this thing. Would that be legal?"

It's called a "legal opinion," Joe. Ever heard the term? No, they're not always right. Sometimes, you misread how a trial judge or an appellate court will ultimately rule if the issue you previously gave an opinion on came before them. But it's certainly not about hubris or clairvoyance. It's about understanding the law and making an informed judgment as to whether or not there is a plausible contrary view, and how a judge might end up ruling if an issue came before him/her -- and then advising your client accordingly. (In the end, the law is what the judge says it is.)

As for this matter, there are DOZENS of cases going back nearly a century where the Supreme Court has upheld federal regulation over activity X, Y or Z as being a legitimate exercise of the Congress' power under the Commerce Clause -- and in many of those cases, the "nexus" between the activity being regulated and interstate commerce was far more attenuated than it is here. Meanwhile, any validly-enacted federal law trumps any state law which is inconsistent with it (Supremacy Clause). Ergo, any argument against Obama's health care plan based on the theory that it violates the Commerce Clause or violates "State's Rights" is soggier than a wet strand of angel hair pasta.

But that's just my opinion.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Sep Wed 16, 2009 6:42 pm

One week after President Obama's speech to Congress, opposition to his health care reform plan has reached a new high of 55%. The latest Rasmussen Reports daily tracking poll shows that just 42% now support the plan, matching the low first reached in August.
A week ago, 44% supported the proposal and 53% were opposed. Following the speech last Wednesday night intended to relaunch the health care initiative, support for the president's effort bounced as high as 51% (see day-by-day numbers). But the new numbers suggest that support for health care reform is now about the same as it was in August.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Sep Thu 17, 2009 6:16 am

Marshead wrote:The smaller and less relevant the GOP becomes, the more desperate, shrill, and extreme it becomes. Watching the implosion of a once-proud (and formerly nationwide) party, with its tattered remnants gathering for a pre-Rapture last stand led by Angry White Men armed with squirrel shotguns, moonshine, Bibles, and "Robert E. Lee for President" buttons on their chests, would be scary and sad if it weren't also so damn much fun.
...
Reality...

Wednesday, September 16
'¢ Colorado Senate - Norton vs. Bennet Rasmussen Reports Norton 45, Bennet 36 Norton +9
'¢ New Hampshire Senate - Ayotte vs. Hodes Rasmussen Ayotte 46, Hodes 38 Ayotte +8
'¢ Virginia Governor - McDonnell vs. Deeds Clarus Research McDonnell 42, Deeds 37 McDonnell +5

Tuesday, September 15
'¢ Nevada Senate - Tarkanian vs. Reid Rasmussen Reports Tarkanian 50, Reid 43 Tarkanian +7
'¢ Nevada Senate - Lowden vs. Reid Rasmussen Reports Lowden 50, Reid 40 Lowden +10
'¢ New Jersey Governor - Corzine vs. Christie PPP (D) Christie 44, Corzine 35, Daggett 13 Christie +9
'¢ Connecticut Senate - Simmons vs. Dodd Daily Kos/R2000 Simmons 46, Dodd 42 Simmons +4

Monday, September 14
'¢ President Obama Job Approval Rasmussen Reports Approve 49, Disapprove 51 Disapprove +2
'¢ New Jersey Governor - Corzine vs. Christie Monmouth/Gannett Christie 47, Corzine 39, Daggett 5 Christie +8
'¢ New Jersey Governor - Corzine Job Approval Monmouth/Gannett Approve 34, Disapprove 58 Disapprove +24
'¢ Arkansas Senate - Baker vs. Lincoln Daily Kos/R2000 Lincoln 44, Baker 37 Lincoln +7

Friday, September 11
'¢ Connecticut Senate - Simmons vs. Dodd Rasmussen Reports Simmons 49, Dodd 39 Simmons +10
'¢ Direction of Country Daily Kos/R2000 Right Direction 39, Wrong Track 55 Wrong Track +16

Race/Topic (Click to Sort) Poll Results Spread
'¢ Congressional Job Approval Associated Press/GfK Approve 28, Disapprove 69 Disapprove +41
'¢ President Obama Job Approval Associated Press/GfK Approve 50, Disapprove 49 Approve +1
'¢ Direction of Country Rasmussen Reports Right Direction 33, Wrong Track 63 Wrong Track +30

Tuesday, September 08
'¢ Generic Congressional Vote Rasmussen Reports Democrats 37, Republicans 44 Republicans +7

Saturday, September 05
'¢ Virginia Governor - McDonnell vs. Deeds SurveyUSA McDonnell 54, Deeds 42 McDonnell +12
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Ian Dashner » Sep Thu 17, 2009 11:21 am

WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama, seeking to make a case for health-insurance regulation, told a poignant story to a joint session of Congress last week. An Illinois man getting chemotherapy was dropped from his insurance plan when his insurer discovered an unreported gallstone the patient hadn't known about.

"They delayed his treatment, and he died because of it," the president said in the nationally televised address.

In fact, the man, Otto S. Raddatz, didn't die because the insurance company rescinded his coverage once he became ill, an act known as recission. The efforts of his sister and the office of Illinois Attorney General Lisa Madigan got Mr. Raddatz's policy reinstated within three weeks of his April 2005 rescission and secured a life-extending stem-cell transplant for him. Mr. Raddatz died this year, nearly four years after the insurance showdown.

Obama aides say the president got the essence of the story correct. Mr. Raddatz was dropped from his insurance plan weeks before a scheduled stem-cell transplant.
Half truths and exaggerations are essentially correct in the new think of the American Left. Unless of course they come from Republicans. Then they are lies influenced by what is likely racism and unrestrained avarice.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125314896131518267.html
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by XtremeCarpetCleaning » Sep Thu 17, 2009 12:12 pm

you're a racist for pointing it out
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Thu 24, 2009 8:56 am

I recall much being made of various associations made by Barack Obama over his political career (nor do I recall you being terribly shy about Googling someone and noting their past or present associations with various controversial persons or causes). Mr. Obama served on a charitable organization's board with Bill Ayers (along with numerous other prominent Chicagoans) in the 00s, and the right spent bucketloads of money (and many pixels on this Forum) trying to cast him as a supporter of, or as insufficiently outraged by, things that the Weather Underground did back when Obama was in grade school.
Should the following claim turn out to be true, your "whistle by the graveyard", charity-sharing relationship hits the skids big time. So far, I would grant the claim somewhat more legitimacy than any put forward by Kitty Kelly, but then who would ever put any stock in her stuff?
Relying on inside sources, quite possibly Michelle Obama herself, Andersen describes how Dreams came to be published -- just as I had envisioned it in my articles on the authorship of Dreams. With the deadline pressing, Michelle recommended that Barack seek advice from "his friend and Hyde Park neighbor Bill Ayers."

To flesh out his family history, Obama had taped interviews with various family members. Andersen writes, "These oral histories, along with a partial manuscript and a truckload of notes, were given to Ayers." Andersen quotes a Hyde Park neighbor, "Everyone knew they were friends and that they worked on various projects together. It was no secret. Why would it be? People liked them both."

Andersen continues, "In the end, Ayers's contribution to Barack's Dreams From My Father would be significant--so much so that the book's language, oddly specific references, literary devices, and themes would bear a jarring similarity to Ayers's own writing."
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Thu 24, 2009 10:19 am

OMG! Barack Obama IS the "Manchurian Candidate"!!! When does Frank Sinatra dash in to save us?

BTW -- This didn't give you even a little pause?
Relying on inside sources,
Are they named? No, of course not.
quite possibly Michelle Obama herself,


Well, at least this commentator speculates on who these alleged, anonymous sources might be. That's helpful.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Thu 24, 2009 11:12 am

But there's something you don't yet know about those sources:

They bumped into the author at a Texas cattle show.

'Nuff said.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Oct Sat 03, 2009 2:04 am

Note the source. Highlighting mine.

Violence, Traffic Accidents and U.S. Life Expectancy
By Matthew Dalton, Wall St. Journal

If you ignore relatively high U.S. rates of violence, traffic accidents and the like, does the U.S. have the world's highest life expectancy?

Betsy McCaughey, the former lieutenant governor of New York and outspoken opponent of Democratic health-care reform schemes, made that argument last week on the Daily Show.

If true, it would undermine a compelling rationale for health-care reform: The U.S. spends by far the most on health care of any country in the world, yet its average life expectancy ranks below many other countries, according to data compiled by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.

The argument appears to be based on a 2006 report written by the economists Robert L. Ohsfeldt and John E. Schneider and published by the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank. The report, which analyzes the OECD's life-expectancy data from 1980-1999, uses a statistical model called a regression in an attempt to adjust for the effects of traffic accidents, suicides, homicides and falls from the OECD's rankings. The report finds that “adjusted' U.S. life-expectancy rises to first, from an unadjusted ranking of 19th of 29 countries.

But the OECD itself took the trouble to counter this finding in print. In a footnote to its 2008 economic survey of the U.S., the agency says that Ohsfeldt and Schneider's estimates are based in part on GDP. If you don't factor in GDP, the U.S. ranks 17th in the world for life expectancy when the high U.S. rate of fatal injuries is ignored, the OECD said.

Back in 2007, Ohsfeldt told the WSJ that he and Schneider were “not trying to say that these are the precisely correct life-expectancy estimates. We're just trying to show that there are other factors that affect life-expectancy-at-birth estimates that people quote all the time.'

Neither McCaughey, Ohsfeldt nor Schneider responded to requests for comment for this post.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Oct Sat 03, 2009 6:12 am

This - I believe - is the research you speak of...

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Now, you make your living on the English language right?

Help me understand what I'm missing here...
... when the high U.S. rate of fatal injuries is ignored
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Oct Tue 06, 2009 9:04 am

According to Medicare auditors, Medicare overpays for virtually everything, and Congress won't let them fix it. If that's not a model for government run health care, I don't know what is
Tracking Your Taxes: Medicare Waste Goes Unchecked
As the single largest buyer of medical products, you'd think Medicare would at least get a volume discount. But it doesn't even get the best price.

By William LaJeunesse

FOXNews.com

Monday, October 05, 2009


From wheelchairs and walkers to orthopedic shoes and needles, Medicare buys tens of thousands of products every day for elderly Americans. And as the single largest buyer of medical products, you'd think it would at leastget a volume discount.

But it doesn't. In fact, Medicare doesn't even get the best price.

According to their own auditors, Medicare knowingly overpays for almost everything it buys. Examples include:

-- $7,215 to rent an oxygen concentrator, when the purchase price is $600.

-- $4,018 for a standard wheelchair, while the private sector pays $1,048.

-- $1,825 for a hospital bed, compared to an Internet price of $1,071.

-- $3,335 for a respiratory pump, versus an advertised price of $1,987.

-- $82 for a diabetic supply kit, instead of a $47 price on the Web.

Last year, the Health and Human Services Department tried to replace its archaic fixed-price fee schedule for 10 commonly purchased products with a competitive bidding program in 10 cities. The department said the program could save Medicare $125 million in a single year, or $1 billion if adopted nationwide. But Congress stepped in to stop it.

"There were products that we had as much as 75 percent savings. The average was 29 percent," said Mike Leavitt, the former HHS secretary who oversaw the program.

"It would have saved billions if we could've actually implemented it, but Congress deferred it. In Washington speak, that means we put it off forever," he said.

Leavitt blames Congressmen Pete Stark (D-Calif.) and Dave Camp (R-Mich.) for introducing legislation that terminated the contracts and postponed the program for 18 months. Leavitt says the congressional intervention helps explain why many are suspicious of claims that Washington can cut enough waste to actually pay for health care reform, as President Obama told a joint session of Congress last month.

"Reducing the waste and inefficiency in Medicare and Medicaid will pay for most of this plan," Leavitt said.

"The problem here is one man's waste is another man's living, and whenever there is an effort put forward to actually make an efficiency, someone goes on the offensive and hires lobbyists and does what they can to constrain Congress from doing it," Leavitt said.

According to the Center for Responsive Politics, the health care industry is currently spending $2 million a day lobbying Congress. Leavitt's pilot program died after small business suppliers claimed it would have put them out of business. Eventually, industry agreed to help pay the cost of terminated contracts that Medicare had already negotiated.

Industry officials argued the new system would unfairly disqualify some suppliers, and others with little experience would get the business, causing a decline in quality and service.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Oct Sun 11, 2009 10:34 am

Who needs death panels ... just empower the government employed doctors...
Daughter saves mother, 80, left by doctors to starve

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Hazel Fenton and her daughter Christine Ball

From The Sunday Times October 11, 2009

AN 80-year-old grandmother who doctors identified as terminally ill and left to starve to death has recovered after her outraged daughter intervened.

Hazel Fenton, from East Sussex, is alive nine months after medics ruled she had only days to live, withdrew her antibiotics and denied her artificial feeding. The former school matron had been placed on a controversial care plan intended to ease the last days of dying patients.

Doctors say Fenton is an example of patients who have been condemned to death on the Liverpool care pathway plan. They argue that while it is suitable for patients who do have only days to live, it is being used more widely in the NHS, denying treatment to elderly patients who are not dying. ...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a ... 869646.ece

From the John the Baptist of Obamacare ... "when you've had a long life and you're ripe, then it's time to go." - Precient Democratic gubernatorial candidate John R. Silber... July, 1990.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by jonathan » Oct Sun 11, 2009 10:49 am

Mark,

As much as I am opposed the public option, using incidents of incompotence from another government is just silly if not dishonest.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Oct Sun 11, 2009 11:49 am

Jonathan,

Why?

The socialist side screams that we (the USofA) spend to much, look at Canada, look at England!

My side shows how they spend less ... Long waits or outright denial of life saving treatments, permanantly retiring the old and infirmed, killing 1000's of disabled BORN children, lagging horribly is cancer survivability rates ect ...

Then the socialist side, this time pretending to reside somewhere in the mushy middle, says this type of DIRECT and substanitive rebuttal is ... "just silly if not dishonest."

What's a guy to think?
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Oct Sun 11, 2009 12:48 pm

Will the obamatrons push the age limit on post birth abortions??

Say for instance if the kid shows tendency to become a conservative, free thinking American Brave??

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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by jonathan » Oct Sun 11, 2009 8:39 pm

My side shows how they spend less ...

Mark I thought we were all on the same side, Americans.

This is a political debate not a war.

That said, taking an example of one persons situation and using to state that that is what is going to happen is just silly.

Health care is rationed now, but it is rationed by insurance companies.

I recently was prescribed medications for my children, insurance would not cover the medicine as they stated that there were cheaper alternatives. This is what their doctor prescribed and what she thought was the best medication but the insurance said no.

There are other countless situations where insurance companies will not pay for a treatment, not long ago they would not pay for bone marrow transplants.


Reform is needed, I am against the public option but the debate should be civil and not accusatory.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Oct Sun 11, 2009 10:13 pm

My first thought:

Gee, horror stories like that poor family in England could never happen here. Surely, there aren't any similar tales involving Americans, with the villain/Grim Reaper being played by a private insurance company. The GOP's fearmongering is right on the money!

This thought passed in about 2 seconds, because it was positively ridiculous. Of course stories like this one have their counterparts in here-and-now, pre-health care reform America.

And about 20 seconds later, I found this, from Ben Smith (Politico, June 16, 2009):

Health Care Tales

Health care reform foes have made good use of horror stories from England and Canada in their campaign to brand Obama's reform plan a shift toward socialized medicine, and Organizing for America is responding in kind, with a series of American health care horror stories.

The group has been soliciting and compiling anecdotes of the country's troubled system; the first video, being released widely today:

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/ ... tales.html
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Kurt Schluter » Oct Mon 12, 2009 6:39 am

Our health care in America is completely rationed by the insurance companies. They are in 100% control of access for those "lucky" enough to have coverage. I have a wonderful policy that is 95% paid for by my company but I still want single-payer so everyone has total access to health care which will logically reduce overall costs because people won't have to wait till they are very sick and end up in the ER costing us all many times the cost of preventive care.
Up here in Maine our schools are offering free health care for all students with in school nurses for routine preventive care and soon are adding dental care as well. The bottom line is that people will receive health care somehow. The difference is having lower costs by offering preventive care or paying much higher ER costs when the issue becomes acute. Unless we are willing to let people die in the hospital waiting rooms. Have we become that sick yet?
Of course the insurance industry will oppose this. Just like the tobacco industry said it didn't cause cancer. But insurance is a big industry and they will continue to prosper without health insurance.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Oct Mon 12, 2009 6:55 am

Add free health coverage to free checks... That ought to really make them get out and become productive...

Illegals included... That should really get the vote out...

All because Mushy cared...

On the other hand libbers could double up on abortions... 100,000,000 ??

Even extend the post birth time to say, age 12... That would insure time to know if the little germ is to be a free thinking American Brave, then, off with his brain...

Save the Tribbles...

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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Oct Mon 12, 2009 3:32 pm

Add free health coverage
Where are you getting "free" from? (Cheaper, sure, due to economies of scale, and reducing the redundancy inherent in armies of insurance company bureaucrats all doing the same thing, and fighting with each other over who has to pay (or not pay) for which procedure.)
to free checks...
Mugs, between Social Security, Medicare, and the VA (including health care, for you and/or your family) and God knows what else, how much do YOU suck on the government teat -- and for how many decades? What's the issue -- are you afraid of someone else horning in on your action?
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