Health care the way it should be

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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Thu 10, 2009 10:30 pm

Chip giving this very lackluster speech an A+ confirms that he was playing to the base here.
"Lackluster" (adjective): A dynamic, engaging speech, exhibiting, alternately, flashes of bipartisanship (on the one hand) and a firmly stated commitment to certain core principles (on the other hand), that doesn't quite get to the middle of the aisle ideologically, which is where I insist it should get to, even though my party got CRUSHED in the last election (in which health care reform was a major issue), and holds nowhere near as many seats (or branches of government) as the other party.

Gee, I wonder if George "Landslide" Bush ever played to his base in portions of any major speeches, or in setting policy. Come to think of it, I distinctly recall him (and his political guru, Turdblossom) governing FROM DAY 1 as if he had won bigger than Nixon in 1972, and had some kind of mandate for a radical lurch to the right.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:02 am

Source: http://rules-republicans.house.gov/Educational/Read.aspx?ID=5

The Rules of the House give the Speaker broad authority to maintain decorum in the House. Much of this authority is codified in Rule XVII, but is also contained in Jefferson's Manual, which is incorporated by reference into the Rules of the House. The Rules, when combined with the principles described in Jefferson's Manual and the precedents of the House form the basis of the decorum rules in the House. The intent is to provide an atmosphere where the Members of the House debate the legislative issues before them, rather than engaging in “personality' by characterizing the actions of another Member or showing disrespect to the institution.

Dress and Comportment

Members are required to dress appropriately, which has traditionally been considered to include a coat and tie for male Members and appropriate business attire for female Members. Members should not wear overcoats or hats on the floor while the House is in session. No eating, drinking, or smoking is permitted, and the use of personal electronic equipment, including cellular phones and laptop computers, is banned on the floor of the House. The rule does permit the use of “unobtrusive handheld electronic devices' such as a Blackberry.

A Member must stand while speaking and address the Chair in their remarks (Mister or Madam Speaker; Mister or Madam Chairman). They must also refrain from addressing other Members, the President, the gallery, or the television viewing audience.

Members are required to avoid walking between the Chair and any Member addressing the House and Members should not walk through the well of the House when Members are speaking.

Exhibits

Although Members are permitted to use exhibits such as charts during debate, exhibits which demean the House or a Member of the House, or otherwise violate the rules of decorum are prohibited. Any Member may object to the use of an exhibit, and the Speaker may submit the question of the propriety of the exhibit to the House without a ruling, requiring that the House vote on whether or not the exhibit should be permitted. Similarly, Members are prohibited from wearing badges to convey political messages while speaking.

Unparliamentary Speech

A Member should avoid impugning the motives of another Member, the Senate or the President, using offensive language, or uttering words that are otherwise deemed unparliamentary. These actions are strictly against House Rules and are subject to a demand that the words be taken down. A demand that the Member's words be taken down results in the clerk reporting the words and the chair ruling on the propriety of the words. (If the demand is made in the Committee of the Whole, the Committee rises and reports them to the House where the Chair rules on their propriety).

The offending Member may obtain unanimous consent to withdraw the inappropriate words or the demand may be withdrawn. Following such a withdrawal, the Member proceeds in order. However, if the Member's words are ruled out of order, they may be stricken from the Congressional Record by motion or unanimous consent, and the Member will not be allowed to speak again on that day except by motion or unanimous consent.

References to the Senate or Executive Branch

Until the 109th Congress, it was not in order to make certain references to the Senate or individual senators. However, at the beginning of that Congress, the House removed the prohibition on making references to the Senate, leaving only the requirement that debate be confined to the question under debate and avoid “personality.' The precedents of the House allow a wide latitude in criticism of the President, other executive officials, and the government itself. However, it is not permissible to use language that is personally offensive to the President, such as referring to him as a “hypocrite' or a “liar.' Similarly, it is not in order to refer to the President as “intellectually dishonest' or an action taken by the President as “cowardly.' References to the Vice President, in spite of his role as President of the Senate, are measured against the standard used for the President rather than prior standards used to govern the Senate.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:28 am

From Crooks and Liars (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert ... member-neo):

Obama heckler Joe Wilson a member of neo-Confederate SCV, fought to keep Dixie flag flying in South Carolina
By David Neiwert Thursday Sep 10, 2009 12:00pm

[Members of the James Younger Camp of the Sons of Confederate Veterans in 2006.]

Looking into the background of Rep. Joe Wilson, R-South Carolina, after his heckling of President Obama last night, I came across this [http://www.ourcampaigns.com/CandidateDe ... ateID=2083]:

Joe also has been a member of the Columbia World Affairs Council, Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Sinclair Lodge 154, Jamil Temple, Woodmen of the World, Sons of Confederate Veterans, ....

This is an organization that, as the SPLC has detailed assiduously, has been taken over in the past decade by radical neo-Confederates who favor secession and defend slavery as a benign institution. Leading the takeover is a radical racist named Kirk Lyons, who's been an important legal figure on the far right for some years.* [More below]

In more recent years, the takeover has led to an outright internal civil war. Andrew Meacham at the St. Petersburg Times detailed the internal rift last year:

Experts say the divisions within the Sons vary between two extremes. On one side are the traditionalists, members who focus on cleaning up Confederate grave sites and conducting Civil War re-enactments.

On the other side are the so-called Lunatics, up to 2,000 members who deride traditionalists as "grannies'' and belong to camps named after notorious Southern figures such as John Wilkes Booth and Jesse James.

John Wilkes Booth members have been known to put pennies in urinals, making sure to leave the Lincoln side face-up. Other Lunatic groups have removed the U.S. flag from their halls and banned the Pledge of Allegiance, says Walter Hilderman, who several years ago created an anti-Lunatic group called Save the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

"The problem is it's supposed to be a patriotic organization," says Hilderman, 59. "You are either that or you let guys in who want to secede."

As Heidi Beirich at the SPLC reported, this rift has led to Lyons himself coming under harsh attack from his own right flank. The SCV is a serious mess.

Now, add this to the fact that Joe Wilson, as a state legislator, was one of only seven Republicans to go against their own party and vote to keep the Dixie Rebel flag flying over the South Carolina capitol:

The flag came down that year after Republicans in both houses went for a compromise that would put it on Statehouse grounds at the Confederate Soldier's monument. The “Magnificent Seven' of Senators who voted to keep the flag up included current Congressman Joe Wilson (who I served with in the 218th Infantry Brigade of the National Guard.)

A clearer picture of why this congressman might so virulently breach protocol and loudly interrupt an African-American president's speech to Congress by calling him a liar does start to emerge, doesn't it?

So inquiring minds want to know:


Is Joe Wilson still a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans?

If so, does he condone the activities of the "Lunatic" faction that now controls the SCV?

Does Joe Wilson consider the Republican Party "the Party of Lincoln"?

Does Joe Wilson support secession?
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Sep Fri 11, 2009 6:07 am

jonathan wrote:Upon further review Mr. Casper, what a derogatory and nasty thing to post insinuating that there are not really hard working people out there who are struggling with these health care decisions. You denagrated them by mocking their plight.

You should be ashamed of yourself.
Two things ...

1) Read my earlier post on this thread ...
http://www.marshfieldforums.com/phpBB3/ ... 80#p411652

Using these known facts, I can say that I do not feel the need to provide insurance for...

> People here illegally
> Families with 75k+ income who can't find it in their budget to pay for health coverage. Yet have two+ cars vacations, Plasma tv's ect.

I DO care about the 20 million left. I wish all this effort was going into gettting the 14 million ALREADY eligible into existing programs and making sure the remaining 6 million have a way to get subsidies to take care of what they cannot TRULY afford.

2) Re listen to the Reason.com film.
It STARTS with "no one should have to choose between health care and a rent and/or food."

But make no mistake. The bulk of these 6 million people above are younger - mostly single men who do not place health insurance as a priority in their lives.

A kid who spends 300 a month on body building supplies and not health care coverage - is NOT - someone who should get my hard earned money before my autistic son. Sorry if that makes me an unfeeling bastard in your eyes. But that is my opinion and I make no appologies for it to you or anyone else.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Sep Fri 11, 2009 6:14 am

Marshead wrote: So inquiring minds want to know:


Is Joe Wilson still a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans?

If so, does he condone the activities of the "Lunatic" faction that now controls the SCV?

Does Joe Wilson consider the Republican Party "the Party of Lincoln"?

Does Joe Wilson support secession?

How absolutely useless you have become to the discussion here?
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Roadking » Sep Fri 11, 2009 7:51 am

Thanks Marshead, I figured he must have a screw loose.

Mark, I have three daughters struggling with young families. They DO have to choose between rent and healthcare. But hey, you got yours, so who cares. I am glad my vote will cancel yours at the polls.

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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Fri 11, 2009 8:03 am

Mushy is on a high roll these the nocturnal hours...

Sure must be something to be that lopsided... OY!!

Am still comparing both sides and looking for more light... :lol:
Still voting republican...


OK, Mushy, now what about the lie?? Care to talk about that?? It was a lie...


Confederate flag??

Look at it closely and you will see the Brittish Jack and a hint of the flag of Saint Brendan...

Here is the flag that replaced that one>>

Image This means you, bozo...

Now, what about the lie???
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by MCasper » Sep Fri 11, 2009 9:35 am

Roadking wrote:Thanks Marshead, I figured he must have a screw loose.

Mark, I have three daughters struggling with young families. They DO have to choose between rent and healthcare. But hey, you got yours, so who cares. I am glad my vote will cancel yours at the polls.

Bill
Bill,

Let me assume you are not embellishing ...

That would literally mean that they are uninsured, or homeless?

Let me further assume it is the former. Now what?

Now, let's see where they fit into the ranks of the uninsured...

I will also assume that they are ...

- Legal US citizens
- Making less that 75K a year.
- Do not qualify for assistence

I will assume they don't live in a house that - if not for their lack of a health insurance bill - they couldn't afford.

Assuming all that ... as my post stated in rather clear english ... I believe the government should assist them. If they don't already qualify ... they should.

But, if any of the above are not the case ... why is it on me to fix it?

You seem to know little about my situation ... even though you are quite willing to pontificate as though you do ...

So let me fill you in ...

I do have health insurance, because I pay for it. ALL of it.

My health insurance costs me a bit over 15,000 a year - More than my mortgage and my groceries combined. + Last year I had almost $11,000 in uncovered medical expenses for my son.

All this on an income less than 75,000K.

So, I will rephrase my question by personalizing it to your personalized post ...

Why exactly should your daugthers get any of what is left over of my hard earned money - after I have spent over 1/3 of my income taking care of my own family's health care?
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Fri 11, 2009 9:53 am

Mushy,

Here is the rebel flag which grew it's roots from the mother land, Brittany...

Besides seeing the root flag of Saint Brendan from it's start, you may also notice the flag of Saint Andrew, who as you know was hung up side down on a cross...

But should it be considered typical that you see Senator Byrd in a flag??? That's twisted fer sure...

Image

Nancy called the CIA liars, fair dinkum?? These two are a wash?? But your guy still doesn't pass the sniff test...


Now, MCas is dealing with the LIE... Care to catch up with him??
You ain't never going to convert any Independants...
Libs lie more than repubs is my impression to date...


What say we start a LIE thread?? Truth trumps...

OK, begin me>>> Obama lies, granny dies...
Obama was NOT a lawyer for Acorn...
This administration is the most transparent administration in American history...
( thanks in part to Tea Baggers :) )
The tax cheat is the best we could do...
Liberal democrats are on the highest moral road...


Yep! Marshy, ya gotta watch them nocturnal emissions... By the time I was your age and still burning the candle on both ends it would take at least 10 minutes of 100% demand oxygen from an F8U LOX bottle in the morning just to make me right again so's I could do a good days work @ two jobs...
Just thot U shud know that...

Enjoy this, our nationalist day of service to the state....
Last edited by specialties on Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Joe P in 08 » Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:10 pm

A clearer picture of why this congressman might so virulently breach protocol and loudly interrupt an African-American president's speech to Congress by calling him a liar does start to emerge, doesn't it?
Is this passage a part of the article - or part of Marshead's commentary?
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:15 pm

That's another gripe on my punch list:

Mushy,

When are you going to quit hiring people based on their skin color???

That's the only decent attribute I see in this guy...
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:24 pm

Mark --

I recall much being made of various associations made by Barack Obama over his political career (nor do I recall you being terribly shy about Googling someone and noting their past or present associations with various controversial persons or causes). Mr. Obama served on a charitable organization's board with Bill Ayers (along with numerous other prominent Chicagoans) in the 00s, and the right spent bucketloads of money (and many pixels on this Forum) trying to cast him as a supporter of, or as insufficiently outraged by, things that the Weather Underground did back when Obama was in grade school.

Meanwhile, Joe Wilson's bio (clearly prepared by Mr. Wilson, or by one of his staff) on a campaign website touts his association with a group which is known -- currently, in the here and now -- for supporting/venerating the Confederate flag (which is, to African-Americans and to a great many white Americans, as offensive as the Swastika), for advocating secession from the United States, and for having various chapters named after such "luminaries" as John Wilkes Booth. And yet, after this man has just committed a mind-boggling breach of decorum by calling the first African-American president a liar in the middle of his speech to a joint session of Congress, you seem to expect people to believe that his various associations -- including those with fringe groups that are active in the present day -- are simply irrelevant.

Sorry, but that just doesn't wash. Not even close.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:28 pm

Is this passage a part of the article - or part of Marshead's commentary?
The former. Everything after the headline of the article is from the article itself.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Fri 11, 2009 12:39 pm

Relax Mushy,

Most of your 'industry' slaves are free and off of the plantation, so you will need a new scam to work against America...

What about my Native American $$$ settlement?? Is it still on??
Take it easy, I hold no feelings plus or minus against you for all that, so no guilt is expected on my behalf...
Just get our cash together before the entire administration flops...

You see what happened to the clunkers for cash pogrom...
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Fri 11, 2009 1:24 pm

And yet, after this man has just committed a mind-boggling breach of decorum by calling the first African-American president a liar in the middle of his speech to a joint session of Congress, you seem to expect people to believe that his various associations -- including those with fringe groups that are active in the present day -- are simply irrelevant.
Couldn't agree more.

But wait a second. Didn't the president call Sarah Palin a liar, without using her name of course? The whole world knew he was talking about her. And doesn't he have a habit of calling females "sweetie"?

Obviously sexist background. Now we see why he's after Palin.

Not "simply irrelevant" is it?

Now I'm thnking maybe Wilson said the president was lying because the president was lying. Hence the need for announcements today that various bills are being tightened up to include language that forbids illegals from getting benefits. Why was this language shot down when proposed by Republicans?
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Fri 11, 2009 4:01 pm

But wait a second. Didn't the president call Sarah Palin a liar, without using her name of course? The whole world knew he was talking about her. And doesn't he have a habit of calling females "sweetie"?

Obviously sexist background. Now we see why he's after Palin.
I'm pretty sure he didn't do so in the middle of a Palin speech to a joint session of Congress (shudder). And considering that Sarah Palin has made a career, since August of 2008, of calling Barack Obama everything in the book just short of "Commie-bastard granny-killing pedophile," she and her supporters don't have a whole lot of standing to invoke the Marquis of Queensbury rules (or faux feminism) on her behalf.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Fri 11, 2009 4:49 pm

Is this a double dose shudder, what with you probably still shuddering profusely from:
From the moment Mr. Bush turned to the subject of Social Security in his speech, there was no doubt of the intensely partisan battle his proposal had spawned. Democrats hollered "no, no!" as a Mr. Bush asserted that the Social Security system "would be exhausted and bankrupt" in 40 years, making it appear for a moment that Mr. Bush was standing in the well at the British House of Commons.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Fri 11, 2009 7:14 pm

I'm pretty sure he didn't do so in the middle of a Palin speech to a joint session of Congress (shudder).
Yeah, but all of congress heard the truth, the lie, and the vexation...

He lied!! That's it... Tell us that he didn't lie... Forget the outside of the box protocol and the delivery mechanism...


Now, for this hour's question:

How many brothels can acorn support with your 8.5 billion??

You folks are going to lose this domestic war on the same basis that Germany and Japan lost their bid to take over the world...

Do you feel US waking up yet??? You're screwed, Mushy, bail out and save yourself...
You know what headaches these past days have caused...
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Fri 11, 2009 8:29 pm

From the moment Mr. Bush turned to the subject of Social Security in his speech, there was no doubt of the intensely partisan battle his proposal had spawned. Democrats hollered "no, no!" as a Mr. Bush asserted that the Social Security system "would be exhausted and bankrupt" in 40 years, making it appear for a moment that Mr. Bush was standing in the well at the British House of Commons.
Nothing any different than what Bill Clinton endured in similar speeches, and several orders of magnitude more benign than shouting "You lie!" while jabbing a finger towards the President of the United States. And that's not to mention the imbecile backbenchers who brought hand-made signs into the House of Representatives (as if they were drunks at an Eagles-Cowboys game), or who waved copies of bills in the air. What a sorry spectacle, and a new low. Clearly, the lunatics are running the GOP asylum.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Phil » Sep Fri 11, 2009 9:23 pm

Government's first duty is to protect the people, not run their lives.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Fri 11, 2009 10:11 pm

Nothing any different than what Bill Clinton endured in similar speeches, and several orders of magnitude more benign than shouting "You lie!"
But he DID lie, Mushy, that's the subject, forget the predicate called effect...

If he gets no respect, then he gets no respect... Case closed...

He lied, you cried, some denied, we all fry...


Thanks goodness we got truth, logic, and humor... Sure beats what ODS could grant us...
Look @ what BDS is still doing to you lefties!!! Get over it... You're screwed...

Why not visit us on Sunday and discover a government that works just great, and is non partisan too???
Why spin your wheels in that mosh pit full of fakery, smoke, and lies??? Come back to where you once belonged...
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Sat 12, 2009 1:20 am

The smaller and less relevant the GOP becomes, the more desperate, shrill, and extreme it becomes. Watching the implosion of a once-proud (and formerly nationwide) party, with its tattered remnants gathering for a pre-Rapture last stand led by Angry White Men armed with squirrel shotguns, moonshine, Bibles, and "Robert E. Lee for President" buttons on their chests, would be scary and sad if it weren't also so damn much fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuXxy8cjZQA
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Sat 12, 2009 6:52 am

Ahhh, them nocturnal emissions...
Watching the implosion of a once-proud (and formerly nationwide) party, with its tattered remnants gathering for a pre-Rapture last stand led by Angry White Men
You nailed that one!!!

Exactly my sentiments since the mid 60s of that once proud, now dembot party....
I'll keep my faith and guns, you can have the change...

I have no idea what the repubs are up to but they still appear to be the salt of the earth and willing to call a liar a liar...
A minority worthy of support fer sure now that free health care is extended to the unqualified...

Speaking of angry white guys, RX is 100% demand oxygen for 10 minutes...
As the enquiry goes in Scientology, " are you clear" ??

Image Suck it up, Mushy...

Next stop, " Sinners Anonymous " meeting... Then FREEDOM, if...

Recall how Daniel Webster handled them nefarious nare do wells against Jabez Stone... OY! That was a close one!!!
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Phil » Sep Sat 12, 2009 9:10 am

Bad news for the forum ambulance chaser and his Obam Acorn party :lol: :lol:

Census severs ties with ACORN: Inaccurate count of pimps, prostitutes and dead Dems eligible to vote feared:

http://tinyurl.com/nkbwan
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Sat 12, 2009 7:52 pm

For the knuckle-dragging, cut-and-pasting imbeciles among us:

Acorn is so Summer of 2008. I couldn't give a rat's *ss what those fools are up to, or the fact that they got busted. Acorn was never more than a sideshow promoted by Sarah Palin and other GOP froth-at-the-mouth types in an attempt to derail Barack Obama's electoral prospects. We all know how that worked out.

BTW -- As stupid as Acorn was to pay its temporary voter registration workers by the number of persons they registered (which certainly gives them an incentive to make up names), I defy you to point to a single vote, cast in any jurisdiction, that is attributable to a bogus Acorn registration. Made-up people don't vote, and Tony Romo doesn't live in the state where some Acorn doofus put his name on one of his registration forms. What Acorn did was collosally stupid, but it didn't result in any bogus votes being cast, nor, of course, in any races being affected. That's a distinction that is far too sophisticated for the average GOPer to comprehend. Better to scream "Acoooorn!" while watching Glenn Beck's veins pop out of his temples.

As for this prostitution-and-pimps story, I hope the Acorn workers who had any part in it get fried (legally speaking). But I also hope that the filmmakers are held accountable, which could be the next shoe to drop in this story:
STATEMENT OF STATE'S ATTORNEYS OFFICE FOR BALTIMORE CITY RELATIVE TO THE ALLEGED BALTIMORE ACORN INCIDENT

Baltimore, MD - September 11, 2009 - We have received inquiries from citizens and the media asking whether the Baltimore City State's Attorneys Office would initiate a criminal investigation for acts allegedly committed at ACORN offices located in Baltimore. The only information received in reference to this alleged criminal behavior was a YouTube video. Upon review by this office, the video appears to be incomplete. In addition, the audio portion could possibly have been obtained in violation of Maryland Law, Annotated Code of Maryland Courts and Judicial Proceedings Article á10-402, which requires two party consent.

If it is determined that the audio portion now being heard on YouTube was illegally obtained, it is also illegal under Maryland Law to willfully use or willfully disclose the content of said audio. The penalty for the unlawful interception, disclosure or use of it is a felony punishable up to 5 years.
who illegally taped their sting operation are held accountable as well.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Sat 12, 2009 8:01 pm

So since ACORN has a history of participating in fraud, do you think it is a serious possibility that they would have committed fraud while collecting data for the up coming census?

By the way since you have been all over the board about Joe Wilson showing poor manners during the Presidents speech, why haven't you said anything about the continued fraud that congressman Rangel keeps doing? or do you think it is ok because he is a democrat?
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Sat 12, 2009 8:03 pm

Acorn was never more than a sideshow
I feel the same way, Marshy, but 8.5 billion ought to see some real carnage...

I hate associating you with acorn, biden, rangal, etc., and all those waywards...

You got more halo than that...


Let's form our own party!!! Bickering isn't going any place... Partisan = crap junk...

Just project the RIGHT THING... That should work for most...
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Sat 12, 2009 11:09 pm

So since ACORN has a history of participating in fraud, do you think it is a serious possibility that they would have committed fraud while collecting data for the up coming census?
It's possible. I would think that the Census Bureau can (and should) do some sort of audit.

But I hope that the fallout does not include the Census Bureau failing to go the extra mile to count the homeless, the poor, and others who are much harder to find (and count) by conventional methods.

As for Rangel, I fail to see any connection between him and the health care debate/Joe Wilson controversy, but I hope the Ethics Committee completes its investigation soon, that it issues a report that is not split along party lines, and that if he is found to have done what he is alleged to have done, that they throw the book at him instead of giving him a slap on the wrist.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Sun 13, 2009 7:08 am

As for Rangel, I fail to see any connection between him and the health care debate/Joe Wilson controversy
This thread was not started to condemn Sen. Wilson for telling the truth, however, thread convolution happens...

No, rangel received dishonorable mention as being part of the pot that boils over with carnage including those deadly carriers of corruption...
There is a guy who is head of a committee which oversees such things as his 'possible tax indiscretion' and then claims not to know about such matters...

The composite and much larger picture is over grossed with this stuff and it is killing the country while WE bicker, and the devil by the way is very happy over this...
OK, we're ALL imperfect... Both dems/repubs and conserves/libs are all in that pot, but hey, can't we agree to pay attention to that which is right vs. wrong???

As a troubleshooter I cannot blame a shorted load on the power supply, but then again there are no components there that point fingers and pick fly squat apart from the pepper in the hopes of deflecting others shortcomings...

WE are the POWER SUPPLY and we are being OVER LOADED, that means ALL of US...

We haven't changed much since biblical times, that's probably why the master history book of 'human nature' is still the best seller... Tells all we need to know...
The 10 'suggestions' were not a script of can do vs. can't do... It was an audit of what is wrong with US humans... Still is...
Wouldn't it be a quantum leap for human nature if we were all to deal with our own sins and vote on the rest??
Why am I just now realizing this??? Cuz we can communicate here in public and see what is wrong with US... We are our own feedback...

Maybe it's a different type of health care that we should consider??

I'll suspend my case for more serious reflection then go vote on the rest...
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Sun 13, 2009 8:56 am

Marshead wrote: As for Rangel, I fail to see any connection between him and the health care debate/Joe Wilson controversy, but I hope the Ethics Committee completes its investigation soon, that it issues a report that is not split along party lines, and that if he is found to have done what he is alleged to have done, that they throw the book at him instead of giving him a slap on the wrist.
The issue is simple you and the democrats are making a big deal out of a guy yelling out that the president was lying, which as it turns out he was. You have turned nothing into a huge debate and have yet to address actually ethics issues in the house.

By the way, by making Wilson the issue the democrats have yet again lost control of the health care debate and one begins to wonder if this white house and congress have any idea what they are doing.

Lets face it when you have such huge margins in the house and the senate that the opposition party does not even need to show up for work and you still can't get anything done that says a lot about your parties ability to lead the country.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Marshead » Sep Sun 13, 2009 11:32 am

First, Joe Wilson is symbolic of the GOP's ever-increasing hysteria, histrionics and debasement of our political discourse. Barack Obama is not just the head of a party, or the head of government. Like the Queen of England, he is the head of state. As such, and per hundreds of years of tradition (and the House's own rules of decorum), he is entitled to one hell of a lot more respect than he got from Joe Wilson, no matter what Obama said or what Joe Wilson thought of it. Period. Yes, the Dems booed GWB in the same type of setting. The GOP booed Bill Clinton years before. But "You lie!" coupled with angrily jabbing a finger towards the President really ups the ante.

Second, there are several bills pending in the Congress, as the GOP is fond of pointing out. As to various versions pending in the Senate, Wilson is right. Conversely, the House version states: "Nothing in this subtitle shall allow federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully in the United States." Joe Wilson should have been glad that Barack Obama, in addressing the matter of illegal aliens, was committing the White House to supporting a final, reconciled version of a health care bill which follows the House version on this issue. But even if you think that Barack Obama overstated his case, the time and place to issue a rebuttal is on "Fox and Friends," "Meet the Press," or in the well of the House during a regular session.

As for this:
Lets face it when you have such huge margins in the house and the senate that the opposition party does not even need to show up for work and you still can't get anything done that says a lot about your parties ability to lead the country.
The GOP has shown quite clearly that it is more interested in obstructionism, for politics' sake, than in legislating. It's hard to lead when so much of your crew is trying to sink the ship rather than let the captain get credit for making port. As for gridlock on health care reform, Ted Kennedy first tried it back when Richard Nixon was in office. He, and others, pushed like hell ever since, through several changes of party control on Capitol Hill. The forces which have a direct financial stake in maintaining the status quo are many, powerful, and strong (including Joe Wilson, for whom the health insurance industry is his largest campaign contributor). But a bill will emerge, and it will get signed -- probably before the end of this year. How watered down it will be is the $64,000 question.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Sun 13, 2009 12:54 pm

First, Joe Wilson is symbolic of the GOP's ever-increasing hysteria
Not to mention us Independents, unenrolled, and otherwise FREE thinking Americans...
We are becoming most irritated and certainly pissed to say the least... Thank God this is a Christian nation or you'd be feeling the fireworks by now...

Typical scribe and pharisee move while the real global warming is making for extinction...

Remind yourself when an ICBM leaves a submarine of those previous actions which caused the total breakdown and are now at that point which have become irreversible...

Get off the fly squat Mushy and pay attention to your totally defunct party...

It's all over... Did you see those Americans filling up the streets of Washington yesterday???
That was a lot more indicative of coming changes then the low pressure area off our southern coast...

Guess what??
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Sun 13, 2009 1:01 pm

A head of state!

Holy cow!

I wonder what would happen to a member of Parliament that declared that British troops were being sent to get their heads blown off for the Queen's amusement.

Perhaps if they were Brits, Barney, Bill, Mike and the other Mass delegation members might then vote to censure.

Then why didn't they vote to censure Pete Stark? Must be all that respect the office of the President is entitled to.


You don't have the money to fund the war or children. But you're going to spend it to blow up innocent people if we can get enough kids to grow old enough for you to send to Iraq to get their heads blown off for the president's amusement.....President Bush's statements about children's health shouldn't be taken any more seriously than his lies about the war in Iraq. The truth is that Bush just likes to blow things up in Iraq, in the United States, and in Congress."

The GOP has shown quite clearly that it is more interested in obstructionism, for politics' sake, than in legislating. It's hard to lead when so much of your crew is trying to sink the ship rather than let the captain get credit for making port.
So the fight has been going on for fifty or sixty years, and the reason it hasn't been resolved is that the GOP is obstructionist. Nothing to do with the fact that the majority has no desire for socialized medicine? Sounds a lot like Kruschev explaining that after fifty years, Moscow was still unable to feed the populations in Russian cities without resorting to purchasing grain on the world (US) market. Not because collectivism failed, they just hadn't tweaked the bugs out yet.

I think you're right that something will get passed this year. But the $64,000 question is not how watered down, but how much damage it will do to the Dems in 2010 and beyond. Have at it.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Sun 13, 2009 1:51 pm

Marshead wrote: The GOP has shown quite clearly that it is more interested in obstructionism, for politics' sake, than in legislating. It's hard to lead when so much of your crew is trying to sink the ship rather than let the captain get credit for making port. As for gridlock on health care reform, Ted Kennedy first tried it back when Richard Nixon was in office. He, and others, pushed like hell ever since, through several changes of party control on Capitol Hill. The forces which have a direct financial stake in maintaining the status quo are many, powerful, and strong (including Joe Wilson, for whom the health insurance industry is his largest campaign contributor). But a bill will emerge, and it will get signed -- probably before the end of this year. How watered down it will be is the $64,000 question.
You can blame the GOP all you want, the simple fact is that democrats can pass any bill they want without the republicans even showing up for work. Yet they can't even get their own party on the same page.

The ability to lead also means at least listening to one of the 35 plans the opposition party has sponsored, yet they haven't.

The democrats have done nothing to shape the debate, all you do is fixate on what Sarah Palin and Glen Beck are spewing about, and then getting all upset because Joe Wilson was rude to the president, big freak'n deal.

By the way the democrats have yet to explain how they are going to deal with the states rights issue that is going to crop as well.

The money is not there at all in the plan to fund the insurance, yet the democrats keep waiting for the money fairy to leave it under their pillows.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Sun 13, 2009 2:12 pm

Ted Kennedy first tried it back when Richard Nixon was in office. He, and others, pushed like hell ever since, through several changes of party control on Capitol Hill.
Yes, but we knew then that we didn't want to become like the Soviet Union or Cuba...

Now we are not so sure...

Why not fight it out internally within the dems, as they are the ones with all the say...

Does smirking count as obstructionist also??

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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by Dave Hagan » Sep Sun 13, 2009 8:30 pm

The Boston Globe's Jeff Jacoby wrote a pretty thought provoking column.
My right to free speech or to own property does not give me a claim on anyone else's time or labor or resources. But if I have a “right'' to health care, someone else must be compelled to provide or pay for that care.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Sun 13, 2009 8:43 pm

Opinions differed on whether a funeral was the right place to importune the Almighty for universal health care.
Oh sure, go running to God for help, now that the party has literally let you down...
It's a wonder that obama didn't have all them symbols covered up...
Nothings too good for teddy...

Something bothers me, how does a catholic be a communist??
But that He is the source of fundamental rights is in fact a core American belief.
Only a self sucking narcissistic meat head would give that an argument, then again, where is he to spend eternity??
Better still, who will be backing him up @ the battle??? Gloria Steinham.??.

And who does he think is going to jump out of the box at him when he gets too antsy??
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by specialties » Sep Mon 14, 2009 8:44 am

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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by lost cause » Sep Mon 14, 2009 10:05 am

Marshead wrote:For the knuckle-dragging, cut-and-pasting imbeciles among us:

Acorn is so Summer of 2008. I couldn't give a rat's *ss what those fools are up to, or the fact that they got busted. Acorn was never more than a sideshow promoted by Sarah Palin and other GOP froth-at-the-mouth types in an attempt to derail Barack Obama's electoral prospects. We all know how that worked out.
You may consider Acorn a 2008 story, but since they have now been exposed in three different cities explaining to people how to commit fraud, they will still be a story. It would however be a lot less interesting if they would turn down the 1.6 million they get in federal funding from HUD every year.
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Re: Health care the way it should be

Post by GoingCoastal » Sep Mon 14, 2009 10:41 am

From the wayback machine:
For the spend-and-tax, cut-and-pasting imbeciles among us:

TANG is so Summer of 1968. I couldn't give a rat's *ss what anybody did 40 years ago. TANG was never more than a sideshow promoted by Dan Rather and other DEM froth-at-the-mouth types in an attempt to derail GWB's electoral prospects. We all know how that worked out.
Or am I imagining this.
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