The "Global Warming" Debates-a.k.a. "Arguing with Idiots"

Issues of a more global nature: National Politics, etc.
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The "Global Warming" Debates-a.k.a. "Arguing with Idiots"

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 01, 2007 7:57 am

What a waste of bandwidth!!!!
This thread should be locked.
And thrown away.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by goodguy » Aug Wed 01, 2007 8:39 am

So we can't hang a curtain betwen us and the Sun?

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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by MCasper » Aug Wed 01, 2007 9:40 am

State high temperature records
State Temp Date
Alaska 100 June 27, 1915
Ariz. 128 June 29, 1994
Ark. 120 Aug. 10, 1936
Calif. 134 July 10, 1913
Colo. 118 July 11, 1888
Conn. 106 July 15, 1995
Del. 110 July 21, 1930
Fla. 109 June 29, 1931
Ga. 112 July 24, 1952
Hawaii 100 April 27,1931
Idaho 118 July 28, 1934
Ill. 117 July 14, 1954
Ind. 116 July 14, 1936
Iowa 118 July 20, 1934
Kansas 121 July 24, 1936
Ky. 114 July 28, 1930
La. 114 Aug. 10, 1936
Maine 105 July 10, 1911
Md. 109 July 10, 1936
Mass. 107 Aug. 2, 1975
Mich. 112 July 13, 1936
Minn. 114 July 6, 1936
Miss. 115 July 29, 1930
Mo 118 July 14, 1954
Mont. 117 July 5, 1937
Neb. 118 July 24, 1936
Nev. 125 June 29, 1994
N.H. 106 July 4, 1911
N.J. 110 July 10, 1936
N.M. 122 June 27, 1994
N.Y. 108 July 22, 1926
N.C. 110 Aug. 21, 1983
N.D. 121 July 6, 1936
Ohio 113 July 21, 1934
Okla. 120 June 27, 1994
Ore. 119 Aug. 10, 1898
Pa. 111 July 10, 1936
R.I. 104 Aug. 2, 1975
S.C. 111 June 28, 1954
S.D. 120 July 15, 2006
Tenn. 113 Aug. 9, 1930
Texas 120 Aug. 12, 1936
Utah 117 July 5, 1985
Vt. 105 July 4, 1911
Va. 110 July 15, 1954
Wash. 118 Aug. 5, 1961
W. Va. 112 July 10, 1936
Wis. 114 July 13, 1936
Wyo. 116 Aug. 8, 1983

Source: U.S. National Climatic Data Center (last updated August 2006)

Weird ain't it? only 1 state (2%) has hit a record high since the begining of GW hysteria?

And Globally?

Continent Highest Temp. (deg F) Place Elevation (Feet) Date
1 Africa 136 El Azizia, Libya 367 13 Sep 1922
2 North America 134 Death Valley, CA (Greenland Ranch) -178 10 Jul 1913
3 Asia 129 Tirat Tsvi, Israel -722 22 Jun 1942
4 Australia 128* Cloncurry, Queensland 622 16 Jan 1889
5 Europe 122 Seville, Spain 26 4 Aug 1881
6 South America 120 Rivadavia, Argentina 676 11 Dec 1905
7 Oceania 108 Tuguegarao, Philippines 72 29 Apr 1912
8 Antarctica 59 Vanda Station, Scott Coast 49 5 Jan 1974

Last continental record set pre-Watergate.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Marshead » Aug Wed 01, 2007 12:27 pm

That's all well and good. But a study published in 2004 revealed that out of the 10 hottest years, in terms of the average global temperature for an entire year, 9 of them were in the preceding decade. All 10 of them were in the preceding 15 years.

And no, George Bush is not to blame. But neither has he done much to be part of the solution, either.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 01, 2007 1:40 pm

Mushy,

You had best study Sharia Law if you plan on staying in the biz...

It's been a cool damp summer, yes??
OK, you need a serrogate worry, so try the attrition rate of the bush wallaby...
The temperature is just fine, but the political climate sux...

Priorities... It's WW3, so quit ragging on the Bush man, and get with the pogrom...
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Marshead » Aug Wed 01, 2007 2:43 pm

Mugsy, my friend -- the way I see it, we have to win the war against Islamic extremism (we differ on how best to do that, but not on the objective) AND solve the problem of global warming. If we fail in either venture, we're screwed.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 01, 2007 2:47 pm

Global heating is in your head, and is part of your pogrom on Amerika...

I see not much difference between you lefties and al-Q...
Both have the same goals, only one with throat cutting via the sword, and the other with throat cutting via a hyjacked court system...

You and putin are on the same channel...

A pox on you both...

Did you know that Greenland has been cooling down with a peak mean warm occurring around 1860 when one could grow crops there??
Not now, it's all covered with ice and snow, and maybe the lack of cigarette boats and suv's and flying squirrils caused it...
Maybe we can buy them some carbon credits... Call it foreign aid...
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 01, 2007 5:11 pm

Science isn't your strong point is it MCasper? That is the dumbest post ever from you..Do you know the difference between climate and weather. Look it up.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 01, 2007 6:14 pm

Don't matter, we ain't voting for albore, or any of you screwy leftist kids who think with your nerves, and claim to know science...
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by The Pilot » Aug Wed 01, 2007 6:32 pm

Siberia? Are you there? Hello? Hmmm... no one is answering...

That's the response scientists have gotten on temperature data from that region of Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union. When the USSR fell, many weather monitoring stations in Siberia were abandoned for lack of funding. So it may well be that the lack of input from this cold area of the world over the last decade might have a bearing on the average temperatures being reported. I have heard that argument being made, and it sure makes sense.

Of course, solar radiation has been increasing lately, and as the Sun is the major driving force of our climate, one would think that more heat from the Sun means warmer temperatures on Earth.

There is data coming in that we've passed over the hot decade as well, and temperatures are trending downward again, although given the Political Correctness of being on the side of Al Gore et al, it might be a while before that trend is acknowledged by many climate researchers. I've also heard that the Greenland ice caps are getting thicker again, but have seen other reports that they are still shrinking.

Sometimes it's a contest between competing research teams and who gets the best play in the mainstream media, since, after all, the policy makers are not scientists. They only know what is pre-digested for them into an executive summary.

I am not convinced that it is HUMAN activity that accounts for Global Warming. I think it is a combination of natural phenominae such as the above-mentioned Sun. Indeed, it's not at all sure that the warming trend is still continuing, it may or may not have peaked. I would say that's too early to tell yet.

Having said that, as I always say, we have other very compelling reasons to get off of foreign oil and fossil fuels, and doing it for those reasons would also reduce our Carbon Footprint, so if the Al Gores of the world turned out to be correct, we would be doing the right thing for other reasons. Like not having to be beholden to unsavory governments in the Middle East, for example.

Plus, economy for its own sake is a VIRTUE. Why drive a big SUV getting 10 MPG when you can get the smaller one that gets 20 MPG. Why spend more on the electric bill with incandescent lights when you can get those compact florescents and cut the light bill?

Plus, we want clean air and clean water, so let's use energy that doesn't pollute!

So I stand with one foot on the side that says Global Warming is not caused by Humans, and the other foot on the side that says we need to reduce our use of fossil fuels and other kinds of energy and conserve and don't pollute so much.

I guess that means each side will think I am on the other side.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Marshead » Aug Thu 02, 2007 11:02 am

Pilot --

Most scientists agree that whatever the underlying "natural" trends may be, human activity is making the world warmer than it would be otherwise. Considering that there is little dispute about the fact that we have added billions of tons of CO2 to the atmosphere in the last hundred years, and given what we know about the heat-trapping properties of this gas, it simply stands to reason that burning fossil fuels is making the earth warmer. And that is certainly the consensus of the scientific community, even if there is not 100% agreement.

You may not know that a flood is coming, but if there is a substantial chance that it MIGHT be coming, then you'd be rather foolish not to grab some sandbags and a rowboat if you had the chance. Do you wait until your house has been robbed to lock your doors or get an alarm system? By the time that the hard-core righties are convinced that human-caused global warming is an irrefutable fact, it will almost certainly be too late to do anything about it.

And then there's the national security angle, whereby we need to wean ourselves from Middle Eastern (and Venezualan) oil...
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Phil » Aug Thu 02, 2007 11:47 am

Most scientists agree that whatever the underlying "natural" trends may be, human activity is making the world warmer than it would be otherwise.
I'm in agreement too.

Cause of Global Warming: 99% natural 1% human
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Thu 02, 2007 12:14 pm

OK, so why don't we all agree to get off the oil pollution method of energy and develop hydrogen, electrolytic, and more hydro electric???

To hell with teddy's limo, long face's 'rocky' and 'scarmouche', and albores 'infra red mansion', yes???
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Phil » Aug Thu 02, 2007 11:29 pm

If you really are concerned about global warming being caused by man, you can do something to help us all. Stop breathing...
"Ignoring the meat of the global warming issue" - "We all emit greenhouse gases simply by breathing - one kilogram of carbon dioxide a day, on average, per person. Since there are six billion of us, we collectively emit more than two trillion kilograms of carbon dioxide a year. Scientists don't hold these emissions against us. What public policy options, after all, exist? Breath control?

All animals emit greenhouse gases and by comparison, humans are relatively restrained respirators. The planet's livestock animals alone, for example, breathe out three billion tonnes of CO2 a year. Livestock, indeed, emit more GHG into the atmosphere than all of the cars, freight trucks, railways, airplanes and container ships in the entire world.

In a comprehensive 400-page analysis, published last year, the UN's Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO) described the spiralling increase in greenhouse gases from livestock as "massive" and asserted that the world governments must urgently address the problem. It explicitly chided environmentalists for their apparent indifference.
In essence, the FAO says, livestock have inherited the Earth - with disastrous consequences."

Directly and indirectly, livestock account for 18 per cent of greenhouse gas emissions, the FAO says - more than "all transport" combined. These animals emit 9 per cent of human-induced carbon dioxide, 37 per cent of human-induced methane, 64 per cent of human-induced nitrous oxide and 65 per cent of human-induced ammonia. Methane has a longer lifespan than carbon dioxide - between 9 and 15 years. Second-ranked of the greenhouse gases, it has a bad-guy GWP - "global warming potential" - of 21, meaning that it is 21 times more effective in trapping heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide over a hundred-year period. Nitrous oxide's lifespan is 114 years; its GWP is 296.

And ammonia is a well-known cause of acid rain.

Animal husbandry, the FAO finds, "is responsible for the production of gases with far higher potential to warm the atmosphere than carbon dioxide." These gases cause other problems as well. Though measured in the atmosphere in parts per billion, nitrous oxide can overwhelm forests, producing what the FAO calls "forest dieback." The excessive nitrogen load essentially reverses the growth effect of CO{-2} and reduces the capacity of the forests to act as "carbon sinks."

(Globe and Mail)
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... y/Business

It would help alot of humans stopped eating meat. Why hasn't that genius Goracle figured that one out yet? Maybe Bella Pelosi will pass a law bannin meat in the USA, to help combat global warming?
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by MCasper » Aug Mon 06, 2007 8:01 am

Kurt Schluter wrote:Science isn't your strong point is it MCasper? That is the dumbest post ever from you..Do you know the difference between climate and weather. Look it up.
weath·er /ˈwɛðər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[weth-er] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
“noun 1. the state of the atmosphere with respect to wind, temperature, cloudiness, moisture, pressure, etc.


Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source
cli·mate /ˈklaɪmɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klahy-mit] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
“noun 1. the composite or generally prevailing weather conditions of a region, as temperature, air pressure, humidity, precipitation, sunshine, cloudiness, and winds, throughout the year, averaged over a series of years.

First we depense with your ironic questioning of MY intelligence... Now to your point - Averages, not extremes is - for this moment - the Global warming mantra.

Its NOT weather events now...



Global Warming Tied to Heat Wave; Lawsuits Loom
-NPR > December 1, 2004

More Frequent Heat Waves Linked to Global Warming
- Washington Post > Friday, August 4, 2006

or is it...

Peruvian Children Die As Global Warming Causes Deadly Cold Snap
BBC - JUly 25th, 2007

or natural disaters?...

Katrina's real name
Boston Globe > | August 30, 2005


THE HURRICANE that struck Louisiana yesterday was nicknamed Katrina by the National Weather Service. Its real name is global warming.

or is it...

Study: Global warming may diminish Atlantic hurricane activity
USA Today > 4-17-2007



This is to hard to follow, not being a rocket scientist like you Kurt.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Mon 06, 2007 8:34 am

First I apoligize for the gratutious personal attack. Uncalled for. Besides, people generally excel in one field while at a loss in others. I know many scientists and professors who are brilliant in thier field while complete dumbasses in everything else. Everybody is expert in something and that something is what we turn to them for counsel. There are very few "Renaissance Men/Women" in this world. I consider you a very intelligent man with opposing political views based on your posts over the years here.
I turn to climatologists for climate information.
Secondly your post points out the ridiculous mass media coverage of the issue. I agree. Scientific journals are the ONLY place to find pertinent data and conclusions on this issue. If I posted these no one would read them. And I dont mean Scientific American even though they are understandable by a layperson which is why they can be a good source for articles.
And it is hard to follow if you just listen to the mass media who has no clue as to the truth or the consequences of what has already occurred and cannot be changed. My overall point of even discussing the issue is to simply make people aware of the coming changes and to keep it in mind when planning your future. For instance, don't buy oceanfront property or anything below 100' ASL. You can't buy home insurance now. What does the insurance industry believe?
Plant a garden. Become more self-sufficient. Consider moving into a less dense area. Consider the ramifications of global shifts in food production and the ensuing migrations of people. I'm not saying to go crazy and uproot your lifestyle, just be aware of the possibilities because the more people we have thinking about the problems we face the more possible options people will think up. I think of it as utilizing more of our human hard drives to formulate possible solutions to our problems. This is the underlying reason behind all my postings of articles and opinions. Information is power. If one person learned one new fact or considered an optional point of view then it is all worth it to take the abuse handed out by a few cretins. :) I also understand that a lot of it is done in jest to get a response.
ps- While Al Gore and his inconvenient truth is correct he way understates the possible effects of climate change and simplifies to the extreme. Sort of like explaining calculus to kindergarteners. But he is successful in raising awareness both here and abroad. He is a fairly good spokesperson for the masses.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Max » Aug Mon 06, 2007 9:26 am

"And ammonia is a well-known cause of acid rain."


Somebody flunked chemistry. Ammonia is a base, not an acid.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Mon 06, 2007 10:46 pm

Don't confuse the kid!!
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by MCasper » Aug Tue 07, 2007 6:51 am

Max wrote:"And ammonia is a well-known cause of acid rain."


Somebody flunked chemistry. Ammonia is a base, not an acid.
WHAT CAUSES ACID RAIN?
One of the main causes of acid rain is sulfur dioxide. Natural sources which emit this gas are volcanoes, sea spray , rotting
vegetation and plankton. However, the burning of fossil fuels, such as coal and oil, are largely to be blamed for approximately
half of the emissions of this gas in the world. When sulfur dioxide reaches the atmosphere, it oxidizes to first form a sulfate
ion. It then becomes sulfuric acid as it joins with hydrogen atoms in the air and falls back down to earth. Oxidation occurs the
most in clouds and especially in heavily polluted air where other compounds such as ammonia and ozone help to catalyze the
reaction, converting more sulfur dioxide to sulfuric acid.
That should earn Kurt at least a gentlemens "C" ... no?

BTW: Although we disagree Kurt... that post reminds me why we get so flumoxed when you post all the lefty drivel articles.

You are a very well spoken and thoughtful person. We would prefer to hear more Kurt and less tin-foil hat rantings.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Tue 07, 2007 7:03 am

I didn't comment about ammonia as that was Max and chemistry is my worst subject. What is the source of your info? Keep in mind that acid rain and climate change occur naturally but what the issue is what is unnatural and dangerous not to the planet because we can't hurt that but to ourselves. Species die off every day and we are just one of them. We are killing ourselves in this industrial age. The point of all the discussion is to save ourselves as the world evolves and adapts to climate change. Where will millions of people go when the crops won't grow around the world but they do in some other part. Mass migrations is what has the Pentagon all stirred up as this is a matter of national security. Maybe that is the underlying reason for the proposed and recently Bush supported North American Union. I am undecided on this issue. How does you feel about abolishing the borders between Mexico, Canada and the US? That is the plan to merge the 3 countries. Obviously, we get screwed but this is what corporate America wants and has paid for.

Gotta run and check out a house for my daughter to rent up in northern Maine where she just became a new public school music teacher!!!! :D Wahoo!!!! :lol:
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Max » Aug Tue 07, 2007 5:06 pm

When sulfur dioxide reaches the atmosphere, it oxidizes to first form a sulfate
ion. It then becomes sulfuric acid as it joins with hydrogen atoms in the air and falls back down to earth. Oxidation occurs the
most in clouds and especially in heavily polluted air where other compounds such as ammonia and ozone help to catalyze the
reaction, converting more sulfur dioxide to sulfuric acid.


Not one statement in the quotation above is correct.

If an author purports to write a factual article about acid rain and wants to convince his reader that mans activities are a primary cause of it, the least he should do is get the facts correct. After all, if the chemical facts are shown to be incorrect, how much of the remainder of his article can be trusted?

One of the problems with people who try to sound erudite by quoting chemical reactions is that they get it wrong. They have no real credibility when they provide incorrect facts. There is really no excuse for this since the real facts have been known since the -“70s, and the chemistry is quite simple. Its available in the most simple introductory texts for anyone to look up, or Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_rain

Heres a quick primer on acid rain (with the correct chemistry):

Carbon dioxide combines with water in the air to form carbonic acid, a weak acid. This is the same acid found in carbonated water. It makes the pH of rain approximately 5.6, mildly acidic. Vinegar (acetic acid) is a stronger acid and has a lower pH.

When sulfur in coal or petroleum is burned, sulfur dioxide is formed. Sulfur dioxides dissolves in water to form sulfurous acid, a strong acid. Sulfur dioxide in air oxidizes to sulfur trioxide. When sulfur trioxide dissolves in water, it forms sulfuric acid. This makes a more acidic rain, sometimes as low as pH 2. Note: there is no formation of sulfate ion, no combination with hydrogen and no catalysis by ammonia or ozone!

Nitrogen chemistry is a little more complicated, but parallels that of sulfur. There are several different nitrogen oxides, usually referred to as NOx, but they form a strong acid when dissolved in water. An example is nitrogen dioxide that forms nitric acid. Nitrogen oxides are formed when oxygen and nitrogen are mixed at high temperature as in an internal combustion engine or in the air by a lightening strike.

Ammonia is not a catalyst and plays no role in this process. Ozone is not a catalyst either. It is a strong oxidizer and oxidizes other compounds, such as NOx among many others. BTW, a catalyst is something that promotes a reaction, but is not changed by it. When ozone reacts, it is destroyed and is not a catalyst but a reactant.

There are other errors in that pasted selection. For example, the author claims that nitrous oxide has a lifespan of 114 years. The proper word is not lifespan, which implies that one molecule of nitrous oxide would last for 114 years; the correct word is lifetime.

This may sound trivial, but when you look at the original report (http://www.grida.no/climate/ipcc_tar/wg1/133.htm) you will see that the scientists have a special definition: lifetime and turnover time are synonymous. The special meaning is that thorough mixing of nitrous oxide in the atmosphere requires 114 years on average.

I mention this because the writer of the article either didnt understand it or chose to write in a way that leads the reader in a wrong direction.

In either case, the result is an article with enough factual errors in it to call the whole article into question.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Tue 07, 2007 5:25 pm

Good job, Max...

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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by The Pilot » Aug Tue 07, 2007 5:38 pm

But people who don't know chemistry would be impressed by the Gee-Whiz factor and think the author was right. Thanks, Max for setting us straight.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Max » Aug Tue 07, 2007 5:53 pm

This is one of the reasons that I think our newest generations should be well-grounded in biology, chemistry and medicine. There is so much in our lives today that requires a reasonable understanding of these topics - far more than when I was in high school.

Think of it, an informed electorate needs to know how to evaluate global warming, water pollution, vaccinations, resistant bacteria, good health care, stem cells, genetic engineering, and so many more things. It's every bit as important as how to put on lipstick or throw a baseball. How can people judge whether Al Gore or Michael Moore are evangelizing the truth or are misguided? How can anyone make sense out the daily news reports that continually report conflicting information about eating this or eating that?

I also think that these subjects were poorly taught in my youth. I succeeded because I loved it, but I don't believe it has to be taught in such an off-putting way. It's true that these subjects require a completely different vocabulary, and that makes it quite difficult to succeed in a 1 or 2 semester course. It would be far better if it were integrated early in creative ways that are interesting. Ideally, no student would have to be subjected to the intense, learn-it-all-at-once course that turns so many students off. Here's a case where the traditional way is definitely not the best, or even better, way.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by The Pilot » Aug Tue 07, 2007 6:05 pm

I've got an old Chemistry book for kids from back in the day. The Golden Book of Chemistry Experiments. A relic from the 1960s. And when I look at chemistry books for kids today, it is so far ahead of them that it is pathetic.

We rely on calculators to do math, but are kids learning the underlying principles? Remember Slide Rules? You could visualize the relationships between numbers with one of those things. You had to know where to put the decimal. With calculators, it's spoon fed to you, already chewed. Sorry for the yucky analogy.

Yes, Max, I agree with you, we need to really push hard on education in math and the sciences! So much of what faces us today is grounded in those disciplines. :beer:
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Max » Aug Tue 07, 2007 6:27 pm

Yes, I remember the sly drool (sorry, a geek joke).

You really had to learn exponents to keep track of the decimals. I still use the same principles to estimate multiplications and divisions in my head.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 08, 2007 6:31 am

I disagree on the slide rule debate. I learned on those in MHS AP Calculus back in 75 and since I haven't used it since my time in the Navy doing ASW workouts without computers I took a refresher course last year as part of my BS requirements. No slide rules just calculators. The difference I noted was that todays class focused more on applications of calculus rather than the mechanics of it which I found much easier to comprehend (never mind life in Marshfield during the 70's as a teenager if you know what I mean!) So I actually understand it much better the second time around without the slide rule. It makes it faster so you can focus on the problem at hand. We still covered the rudiments of calculus (thank God!) or I would have been lost.

Thanks Max for the excellent chemistry lesson. It still frightens me! :lol:
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by MCasper » Aug Wed 08, 2007 7:26 am

Max wrote:...Not one statement in the quotation above is correct...

As I read your post I remember back to my school days and why I am so deficient in my knowledge of this subject matter. The context achieved through elementary knowledge is vital in learning more complex ideas... This has always been so hard to acheive for me in chemistry that without it... I have a very hard time with these concepts that are so basic to folks like you.

This is a very sad comentary since a basic knowledge in the subject is so key to understanding life itself. My bad.

You seem a VERY bright fellow. Usually when I look things up on the internet, I have at least some level of knowledge in the subject to find credible source material. This time I guess my want to defend Kurt got the better of me. Thanks for the lesson.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 08, 2007 7:42 am

The Max's of this world will set US free with the truth...

The alchemists of the world will forever be looking for new pimps...

This thread was direct from the rooms of albores infrared mansion...

Case closed... Next lie??



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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 08, 2007 8:04 am

For those interested here is the link to the IPCC report. Its huge and technical and according to most climatologists it is extremely conservative due to politics.
http://www.ipcc.ch/
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 08, 2007 8:50 am

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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 08, 2007 9:34 am

In four sentences, what does it all say, as we tend not to waste much time on your wallpaper...
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 08, 2007 10:59 am

How about 4 paragraphs instead. Remember I haven't been in the wx biz for 25 years so my interpretations are just slightly more informed than yours. I am considering going back and getting a MS in climatology however as it is a growing field of research and I'm sick of business. And there are bookloads more than just these off the cuff comments. But it changes hourly.


1. Climate change is real and the rate of change is changing exponentially. New data and research comes to light daily around the world as there are thousands of projects underway at any given time. Almost all of it will never be in the mass media due to politics and technical incomphension by laypeople. Most news is BS.
2. The current fluxes are caused by industrial society and are irreversible in the short term though possibly not the long term. Look for global events at any time on a huge scale within the next 50 years. The dislocation of the Greenland Ice Sheet is the one to watch for devasting results here in New England. That one is the worst possiblility and could happen anyday and will be ignored by the media until it happens. Sea level rise of 30 ft is a known result. Instantly so imagine the waves and erosion. This concerns me the most personally.
3. Abrupt climate change has occurred in the past with no warning caused by shifting ocean currents like the NAO (North Atlantic Oscillation) and or Gulf Stream. This is caused by melting ice which dilutes the seawater which sustains the currents. This is happening now. Abrupt meaning 10 years or so taking England into a northern Canada like climate. Similar changes occur around the world. These projections are national securty related and classified. My TS clearance lapsed many years ago so I don't know the details.
4. Climate change is exacerbated by global warming and means hotter in some regions and colder in others. It also greatly impacts cyclogenesis and the degree of intensisfication and path of travel and lenght of existence. Not just hurricanes as regular storms can be much more devasting as they last longer and are continental rather than maritime. Air mass modification in the future is a total guess as short term historical data is impossible to determine with current technologies.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 08, 2007 1:33 pm

I understand and am clear on the finer points...
My life has depended more times on good forecasting, but more so on alternate training, just in case, which is sometimes the case...

The pickle factory is always looking for good WX guessers... Give it a go... It's not just a job...

Weather has'nt changed much in a million or so years, except for a few degrees swing over the centuries, like now...

A more clear and present danger is the one our President is trying to cope with, with or without your help...
I don't blame you for being a pacifist, but that won't discourage errant muslims from cutting your throat...
Think about it...

Once you get an up to date briefing on the WX SATS and new confidential technology, you'll love it...
Seems a peaceful way to help win the peace... Have you caught those combat WX guessers on the objective channels??
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 08, 2007 2:14 pm

Some theorists think that abrupt climate change will annihalitate all human life irregardless of what we do. That is the problem I am concerned about. People can be managed but the environment or its ability to sustain human life cannot. We can address more than one issue at a time you know. We have to. Trying to forecast the future allows us to prepare for it.
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 08, 2007 2:29 pm

Kurt,

We have to agree on a least common denominator...

How about new kinds of fuel?? I'll bet we all agree that would help many if not all fronts...

Electrolytic separation of hydrogen from water keeps haunting me since we first used a 'seperator' in the 50s inside our 'survival kit'...

And the left over oxygen byproduct could be given freely to smokers to prolong their/OUR wasted lives...

Trust me, I want the same things as you... How to get it is the route to choose...
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Kurt Schluter » Aug Wed 08, 2007 4:24 pm

We pursue all research on all types, agreed. Finally! :)
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Wed 08, 2007 5:15 pm

Heck, yeah... Truth sets us free... Look @ what Max did... I hadn't the answer... Not a clue...
And I was even willing to buy into it, as far as whatever that would be worth...

When vexed to my nadir, the strong haunting mantra comes in with:

" Beware of those who wander through the world, seeking the rule of soul "

( especially my young bud's souls )

I am busy with 19 things from engineering to cutting up the re-cycle stuff...
I were twins, I'd do more...

In reflection: DO SOMETHING - EXPECT NOTHING - BLAME NO ONE
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by MCasper » Aug Thu 09, 2007 8:18 pm

Today, the GISS admitted that McIntyre was correct, and has started to republish its data with the bug fixed. And the numbers are changing a lot. Before today, GISS would have said 1998 was the hottest year on record (Mann, remember, said with up to 99% certainty it was the hottest year in 1000 years) and that 2006 was the second hottest. Well, no more. Here are the new rankings for the 10 hottest years in the US, starting with #1:

1934, 1998, 1921, 2006, 1931, 1999, 1953, 1990, 1938, 1939

Three of the top 10 are in the last decade. Four of the top ten are in the 1930s, before either the IPCC or the GISS really think man had any discernible impact on temperatures. Here is the chart for all the years in the data base.
Top 10 GISS U.S. Temperature deviation (deg C) in New Order 8/7/2007

Year Old New
1934 1.23 1.25
1998 1.24 1.23
1921 1.12 1.15
2006 1.23 1.13
1931 1.08 1.08
1999 0.94 0.93
1953 0.91 0.90
1990 0.88 0.87
1938 0.85 0.86
1939 0.84 0.85

Now what?
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Re: The Warming Globe and Us

Post by Mugwump Alpha » Aug Thu 09, 2007 8:49 pm

It appears that our liberal friends give suck to these bogus arguments as a denial against what is really going on...

What else can it be??

Denial like suicide takes on many changes... Neither address the priorities at hand...

Maybe they need a wipe out, then they might see... I've never seen this much to do about nothing...

All from the rooms of albore's infra red mansion...
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